SmallNetBuilder Forums

Go Back   SmallNetBuilder Forums > General > Other Article Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-18-2009, 08:42 PM
00Roush 00Roush is offline
Very Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 249
Default New To The Charts: Cached Performance Filters

Looks good. Seems to bring the ranking more inline with what one would expect.

On a side note... Have you had a chance to do any testing with the Qnap TS-509 PRO on your new testbed?

00Roush
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-18-2009, 10:20 PM
thiggins's Avatar
thiggins thiggins is online now
Mr. Easy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,980
Default

Thanks for the feedback.

The 509 Pro has long since gone back to QNAP. I have asked them to resubmit it for retest. But so far, they have not sent one... or any other of their new NASes.

I'm still waiting to hear back from them on the 509 Pro, 439 Pro, 539 Pro, etc...
__________________
Tim Higgins
Managing Editor,SmallNetBuilder.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-18-2009, 11:11 PM
Madwand Madwand is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 67
Default

I appreciate the effort, but don't think much of it as it stands. To me, it's a gory hack which merely cuts out the most obviously objectionable part of cached measurements, while still leaving in all the rest and even hiding it better from those who would at least notice the absurdity of "server" measurements exceeding theoretical network bandwidth.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-19-2009, 09:24 AM
drbiggly drbiggly is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11
Default

I had actually wondered a bit about this myself, so it is nice to see it being addressed. Good work!

-Biggly
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-19-2009, 09:53 AM
thiggins's Avatar
thiggins thiggins is online now
Mr. Easy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,980
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
I appreciate the effort, but don't think much of it as it stands. To me, it's a gory hack which merely cuts out the most obviously objectionable part of cached measurements, while still leaving in all the rest and even hiding it better from those who would at least notice the absurdity of "server" measurements exceeding theoretical network bandwidth.
Ok... What would you propose as the solution?
__________________
Tim Higgins
Managing Editor,SmallNetBuilder.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-21-2009, 12:24 AM
Madwand Madwand is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 67
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Ok... What would you propose as the solution?
There are many potential alternatives. I think the Vista file transfer is in itself a great advance, as there's really no arguing that it gives a meaningful result -- file transfer is really a standard, and very large file transfer not only solves cache size questions, but is increasingly becoming real application usage. A single day's worth of snapshots can exceed 4 GB, and a single DVD image 8 GB, and a Blu-ray image can make gigabit feel like wireless.

Vista transfers are a slice of "file transfers", and its main flaw is that it doesn't capture other common cases, e.g. XP-32 transfers. Add XP performance while it's still common, and you've got a good "real world" benchmark. But you don't have to show XP and other client or transfer tool performance for every case (unless you want to) -- you could just set up a couple of high-performance cases to illustrate the differences the clients make (e.g. XP vs. Vista, single drive vs. RAID array, and even extend this to not-so high performance -- 100 Mb/s vs. gigabit, and perhaps even leading wireless-g, n), and then normalize to a high-performance client test leaving the server as the expected bottleneck. (You've probably even done some of this already, but I don't recall the presentation at this time.)

In short, Vista and even RAID on the client can be real world, but it's not the real world for everyone -- factor out a sampling of the real world clients, and then focus on seeing the limits of the server. Drop even the 100 Mb/s performance for that, as there's typically not much to say there -- if one's really concerned about wired performance, then gigabit is an available and affordable solution; 100 Mb/s is not as hard or interesting to saturate; the differences among servers in that respect aren't great, and if they are, then that should also be typically visible with gigabit client testing.

For other "benchmark" applications, even something as simple as ATTO can also give you a nice and fast view of performance at a read vs. write level factoring out the client HD speed but including Windows protocol issues and showing the effects of buffer size on performance. Not all buffer sizes are meaningful, and ATTO is not the most thorough, but it's a good start in that direction as it often shows decent correlation with actual file transfers.

IOMeter can be used to construct a suite that's more thorough and gives essentially the same or richer set of results.

I haven't played much with it, and find the Intel-centricity and weight of it unpleasant, but Intel's NAS benchmark is also interesting, and if I had a month or so to digest it and it worked out, it or something like it could in theory end up being a "comprehensive" suite.

But I'd probably go with IOMeter off a Vista client using a (largely) sequential test suite constructed by checking the access patterns of some common applications (e.g. file transfer, Photoshop). SysInternals and other more detailed capture tools (some from Intel) could be used for this.

But whatever you do, please please please don't take StorageReview's approach of creating a secret unreproducible test suit -- let us also know enough to be able to reproduce your test configuration and see how it works in our own environments. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:19 AM
thiggins's Avatar
thiggins thiggins is online now
Mr. Easy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,980
Default

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Madwand. However, changing the test method "restart the clock" in terms of being able to compare products. I am trying to not do that at this time, because of the recent change to the new testbed.
__________________
Tim Higgins
Managing Editor,SmallNetBuilder.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-22-2009, 06:21 PM
bogolisk bogolisk is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiggins View Post
Ok... What would you propose as the solution?
I'd suggest to eliminate all numbers for file size smaller than 2G (or 1G). Above 2G, it'd be very unlikely for the local cache to have a significant effect on the results.

we can't just look at the read numbers. Some NASen have very different read-vs-write performance.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-31-2009, 04:15 AM
Dennis Wood Dennis Wood is offline
Very Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 246
Default

Roush, the TS509 maxes out at ~80MB/s read and 50MB/s writes on our RAID 0 workstations running Vista SP1 once the 4GB cache is exhausted, so likely Tim would see similar.

The filter is good..and having the choice to use it even better! For one thing, if you're interested in bouncing files back and forth under the cache limits of both workstation and server, then I'd want to see how the unit behaves with smaller files too. As soon as you start accessing the unit from several workstations (as we do in the SMB environment) then it's nice to know how much RAM is supported on the NAS, and in my mind, should be part of every review. On the other hand, any slightly stressed NAS will run out of cache even under slight loads and at that point the disk performance under multiple loads is everything! For writes from a fast disk array to NAS cache, we're consistently seeing about 120MB/s which quickly settles in the real read/write rates as files exceed 4GB. So that number is what the filtered results should tell you.

With the READYNAS Pro results we're getting, I'd go a step further and add load testing with the NAS units connected via LACP to two identical test beds. The reason I'd suggest this is that the ReadyNas PRO's aggregate disk IO is now exceeding a single gigabit LAN connection's functional performance. As a business user, these numbers are what I'm looking for.

Cheers,
__________________
Dennis Wood
http://www.cinevate.com

Last edited by Dennis Wood; 03-31-2009 at 04:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-31-2009, 11:11 AM
thiggins's Avatar
thiggins thiggins is online now
Mr. Easy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,980
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Wood View Post
With the READYNAS Pro results we're getting, I'd go a step further and add load testing with the NAS units connected via LACP to two identical test beds. The reason I'd suggest this is that the ReadyNas PRO's aggregate disk IO is now exceeding a single gigabit LAN connection's functional performance. As a business user, these numbers are what I'm looking for.
The suggested test might be doable on an occasional basis for products whose performance warrants it. But for most products, it wouldn't be worth it for either the time or $ involved.

On a similar note of "not worth it", I'm considering dropping 100 Mbps tests unless a product's gigabit-connected performance is < 12.5 MB/s. NASes now all come with gigabit LAN and 100 Mbps performance is generally > 12.5 MB/s. That's why I changed the NAS Chart default view to gigabit -- the 100 Mbps view isn't very helpful.

This would be a big time-saver, since the 100 Mbps tests running up to 4 GB file sizes take awhile...
__________________
Tim Higgins
Managing Editor,SmallNetBuilder.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:02 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006-2009 Pudai LLC All Rights Reserved.
Comscore