Draytek routers

[spikehome]

Why are there no draytek routers tested yet?

[jdabbs]

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/24650/96/

Though it's been a while.

[thiggins]

They are not that popular in the U.S., basically.
They actively approached us around the time of that review. But then
haven't heard from them since.

[spikehome]

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/24650/96/

Though it's been a while.Tnx, but that one is not at the chart?

[spikehome]

They are not that popular in the U.S., basically.
They actively approached us around the time of that review. But then
haven't heard from them since.
Why are they not populair?
And bad thing they haven't contact u

[thiggins]

Why are they not populair?
And bad thing they haven't contact u
Basically, lots of competition and limited distribution and advertising.

What does Draytek have that you can't get in other products?

[spikehome]

What does Draytek have that you can't get in other products?

Draytek has all in one router cheap, good firewalling (filtering works a bit strange only), bandwith management, vlan wired, vlan wireless. vpn to vpn, pptp access, some models dual adsl line if one go's down.
Everything wat i need in one cheap produkt.

I need at my adsl-modem/router bandtwith management, openport speciefied from witch ip adress, vpn, vlan, wireless, and more stuff what the draytek support and i cannot find in one other product yet. (but i don't see so much stuff as your people do :))

[Osamede]

Hear hear, more on Draytek, been looking at their 2820n and 2700g for some time now. I hear they have a 2710 series that is new too...

[bliko]

I've been really impressed by draytek products...i'm too surprised that they're not popular in the us.

If you have any questions about the 2820 series I may be able to answer them; since I've used a couple of these before.

[tipstir]

Odd looking equipment wonder what's inside them that make them tick? TP-LINK from China at least they're cheaper but pack a lot of stuff into there gear.

[Osamede]

They have used several different chips over time. If you do a search on the Draytek section of the Whirlpool.net.au forums, I did some research a few months ago and listed the chips they had used in several units over the past 5-8 years. They do seem to jump around from generation to generation.

One of their keys IMO is not just the chipset but they actually deisgn properly for cooling the unit, which is where most consumer routers fall flat - and thus produce these crashes and drop outs. In contrast, the Drayteks I have owned seem to be able to just plug in and run and run and run, till they basically are invisible because you dont think about the router - you dont need to - it just works.

[stevevogelnu]

They are not that popular in the U.S., basically.
They actively approached us around the time of that review. But then
haven't heard from them since.
Hi Tom ;-)

I just heard about your site from a customer who read about DrayTek in your forums. I think it is kind of funny there are DrayTek posts all over your forum but DrayTek is too small to be worth reviewing. You have all these reviews of the brands everybody knows about, but everybody knows that real innovation always comes from the small brands. I think you could add more value to the community by actually discovering new products that add unique value.

...or is this site really intended to be an elaborate Linksys ad?

Steve
www.draytek.us

[YeOldeStonecat]

Hi Tom ;-)

I just heard about your site from a customer who read about DrayTek in your forums. I think it is kind of funny there are DrayTek posts all over your forum but DrayTek is too small to be worth reviewing. You have all these reviews of the brands everybody knows about, but everybody knows that real innovation always comes from the small brands. I think you could add more value to the community by actually discovering new products that add unique value.

...or is this site really intended to be an elaborate Linksys ad?

Steve
www.draytek.us

Market harder in the US. I'm an SMB consultant, have been so for many years. I've worked on probably 99% of any/all home and SMB router brands that are in the market around here...I've not come across one single Draytek. Nor have been approached by marketing, as I'm swamped with "Become one of our partners" with all other brands out there.

Become available to our channels in the US. I just checked two of my wholesalers (both one of the bigger wholesale channels in the US)...did a search for Draytek...not one single product came up. I've been familiar with your brand name for many years..just have not seen them over here.

[thiggins]

Hi Steve,

You sure have an odd way of doing marketing outreach: posting in a forum, getting my name wrong and questioning the integrity of SmallNetBuilder.

Most companies contact me directly and ask for a review.

[odu]

Hi Tim,

Good point. On the other hand, I can't imagine you just sit back and wait for whatever manufacturers see fit to send you for review.

Also, it might be in the interest of your readers to review Draytek routers, as IMNSHO they are among the best out there, plenty of functionality, few niggles, and very stable, yet just about affordable. Shame they seem to refuse to publish throughput figures though.

Regards,

Oscar.

[Osamede]

Hi Tim, Good point. On the other hand, I can't imagine you just sit back and wait for whatever manufacturers see fit to send you for review. .
Well in all fairness I have asked on this forum a couple times about Draytek and it want even a matter of that. He flat out said he wasnt interested in reviewing the product because it wasnt in US big box stores. I said its available on the web via a couple of places I mentioned but that didnt spark his interest either.

Which IMO is an odd attitude to take to a product that readers come to you raving about. Even odder for me was the stance from a website that product available only on Web is irrelevant - I mean what if we as readers took that view to SMB itself?

Also I would have thought that reader demand to hear about a product should be as important as behind the scences agreements or sponsorship from manufacturer. I cant imagine that they would turn him down if he asked to loan a model for review of whatever.

Whatever the case, these guys make good products in my experience, far more stable than the Netgears or Linkysys that I have used in my time, so I hope he will review them.

[jdabbs]

Well in all fairness I have asked on this forum a couple times about Draytek and it want even a matter of that. He flat out said he wasnt interested in reviewing the product because it wasnt in US big box stores. I said its available on the web via a couple of places I mentioned but that didnt spark his interest either.

Which IMO is an odd attitude to take to a product that readers come to you raving about. Even odder for me was the stance from a website that product available only on Web is irrelevant - I mean what if we as readers took that view to SMB itself?

I'm not going to speak for Tim, but I'll give you a US-centric perspective.

Availability:
0 results (http://computers.pricegrabber.com/routers/draytek/p/66/form_keyword=draytek/st=query/sv=search_top) for "Draytek" in Pricegrabber Computers>Networking>Routers.
No offerings on Amazon, TigerDirect, ZipZoomFly, or Newegg (major US Internet retailers).
I'm sure you can find a site that'll ship to the US, but that only constitutes "availability" in the strictest sense. Not knocking Draytek; they just aren't sold here unless you specifically look for them (and even then it takes some effort).

The question I would be asking myself is, "Why hasn't Draytek felt it worthwhile to send an item for review?" I'd imagine the answer to that question overlaps with the reason SNB hasn't gone out on a limb to acquire a unit for review.

Also I would have thought that reader demand to hear about a product should be as important as behind the scences agreements or sponsorship from manufacturer. I cant imagine that they would turn him down if he asked to loan a model for review of whatever.

Whatever the case, these guys make good products in my experience, far more stable than the Netgears or Linkysys that I have used in my time, so I hope he will review them.

Reader Demand:
Obviously a unit that hasn't been reviewed is going to generate more requests than one that's already on the charts, so I suggest comparing mindshare. Thread counts per keyword (http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/search.php):

"D-Link": 330,
"Linksys": 406,
"Netgear": 369,
"Trendnet": 80,
"Draytek": 20.

Google ratios are similar (main difference is a decrease in Netgear's standings, a mere 11-1 vs Draytek).
Draytek may be competitive quality-wise, but they're nowhere near the same level of popularity as the other guys. I don't know if they're doing anything to change that, but getting US retailers to carry their products would be a good start.

Draytek Cooperation:
I don't think they're as forthcoming as you imagine; for starters, their approach (http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=10607&postcount=12) needs a bit of work.

[thiggins]

Well in all fairness I have asked on this forum a couple times about Draytek and it want even a matter of that. He flat out said he wasnt interested in reviewing the product because it wasnt in US big box stores.
Being carried in a "big box" store is not a criteria for review on SNB. Many of the products we review are available online only.

[Osamede]

I'm not going to speak for Tim, but I'll give you a US-centric perspective.
Availability:
0 results (http://computers.pricegrabber.com/routers/draytek/p/66/form_keyword=draytek/st=query/sv=search_top) for "Draytek" in Pricegrabber Computers>Networking>Routers.
No offerings on Amazon, TigerDirect, ZipZoomFly, or Newegg (major US Internet retailers).
I'm sure you can find a site that'll ship to the US, but that only constitutes "availability" in the strictest sense. Not knocking Draytek; they just aren't sold here unless you specifically look for them (and even then it takes some effort).
Actually I am American myself and in the past have bought a Draytek from one of their US retailers, Guideband.com. I am sure I posted this infomation here at some point.

But more important is whether reviews should be driven by a popularity or googling contest, or from insights into products. When we all here have experienced at least one Netgear or Belkin or Linksys piece of junk that overheats and reboots every five minutes or every day whatever, I would think that its worth putting some effort into a tip you get from a few users that "Hey this brand makes really good routers. They cost more, but we think they are worth it in use".

If this website wants to be the premier place for this subject then hey how about leading with something people havent heard of and maybe should have heard of. If its a small brand, why is that a crime? If its only hard to find but worthwhile, why not bring it to people's attention and let them know where it is that they can find it. That is value for a reader.

When I bought my Popcorn Hour media player for example, there was exactly one place I could acquire it - and that was their own website. Nor did they do any advertising either. But you know what, I respect the websites (MPCclub and AVForums) that informed me to have a look at that product, instead of sending me to go buy the media players that were "widely available" at the time - and then pull my hair out for months after. Honestly, that kind of info is valuable as hell. And no it doesnt mean the product will become mainstream. Even now I am sure that Apple or Netgear still outsells PopornHour. But the informed buyer has benefited.

As for attitude, well I could tell you a long story about bad attitude from Netgear after I had paid them my money for their product. I mean a measly 90 day warranty and they wouldnt even serve me right for that brief time. That is a bad attitude. I left them and let's put it this way, the Draytek that I replaced it with has never once crashed, nor have I had to call them or use my longer warranty. That is the "attitude" I am looking for as a consumer.

Personally I have a Draytek and I certainly aint going back to dealing with the majority of the router brands that are reviewed here. I wont tell you what I have is the best and only router of all time - I am not qualfied to do so and even I dont think it is "perfect" per se. But having used one for several years, its fair to say that its a brand worth reviewing. They are doing something right with the product. Maybe not the marketing, but hey the product quality is what matters to me, having paid my money.

Truth is electronics are increasingly a use-and-throw offering these days, so as a buyer it is refreshing to see a company that seems to make products for the long haul. With that in mind, I would suggest that you take an information provider point of view on the issue rather than gatekeeper one. There seem to be lot of egos getting in the way here. Maybe stuff about them kissing the Don's ring and so on. Or maybe something else we are not aware of. But none of that is serving us as readers of the website, or as consumers.

Inside this is also really a news opportunity. Draytek makes a good number of products and no they arent cheap, being really targeted at small busineses rather than consumers. It is certainly worth knowing which ones of their products are in fact good value for consumers and maybe worth stepping up to, and which may not be. IN other words are there any good reasons to spend 90 bucks for a Draytek G router when a DIR-655 is the same price. Are there good reasons to spend 275 bucks for a Draytek N router when that DIR is 90 bucks. Again it would be interesting to see what is really in the comparison and what types of buyer might find any value in this. The same goes for "SMB" type of networking prodcuts from D-Link and so on. Can any consumer find real value in paying more a DAP-2553 instead of a DAP-1552?

Maybe even conduct long term tests of these or other more expensive routers, to see over several months which ones may be more likely to overheat or crash or whater. Really getting under the covers. Is there any value in spending more money in the long run? If so how much is it really worth. This is the type of assessment this website has at times implicitly or explicity made regarding products such as the D-link DIR-855. Again this is the kind of info I would hope this website wants to make its name on - by informing consumers where the value is, or is. This should be more important than egos.

[jdabbs]

You made several good points, so I don't want to address one point, tack on a counter-argument, and dismiss the rest. Let me catch up on work (and possibly sleep) and I'll try to respond in kind Thursday evening/Friday morning.

Edit: Okay, a little later than Friday morning. ;)

But more important is whether reviews should be driven by a popularity or googling contest, or from insights into products. When we all here have experienced at least one Netgear or Belkin or Linksys piece of junk that overheats and reboots every five minutes or every day whatever, I would think that its worth putting some effort into a tip you get from a few users that "Hey this brand makes really good routers. They cost more, but we think they are worth it in use".

The purpose of listing mindshare was to give some indication of Draytek's "reader demand." I could have gone one further and listed individual users since there are so few, but to be fair that's as much due to the makeup of this forum as it is interest.
I do believe popularity should have an impact on review attention. You can find numerous requests of router reevaluations, on the basis of firmware/hardware revisions. Given that not every router upgrade can be tested, priority should go to the most popular routers, since more people would benefit. Proportionality is also important; little guys or not, if Linksys has a dozen routers and Draytek has two, there's nothing sinister about having more Linksys router reviews.


If this website wants to be the premier place for this subject then hey how about leading with something people havent heard of and maybe should have heard of. If its a small brand, why is that a crime? If its only hard to find but worthwhile, why not bring it to people's attention and let them know where it is that they can find it. That is value for a reader.

I can't take a position that says no, a reader will not benefit at all from a product review. However, the amount of value derived can vary. Let's say there's a hypothetical company called...Smaytek. Smaytek isn't established in the market, but they do have a few expensive routers. SNB goes out and purchases one, and it turns out the router wasn't very good. How much does the reader benefit? Well, Smaytek doesn't have a market presence, so the average reader wasn't aware of Smaytek in the first place. They just make a mental note not to buy that router, if they ever encounter an opportunity to do so in the first place. Since not many people are interested in Smaytek products, SNB would have greater difficulty in recouping their investment from ad impressions. Meanwhile, there are other companies out there willing to provide units for review, free of charge. If that's not enough material, there are still products widely available that can be reviewed, that readers would likely be more interested in because they've encountered them before.

When I bought my Popcorn Hour media player for example, there was exactly one place I could acquire it - and that was their own website. Nor did they do any advertising either. But you know what, I respect the websites (MPCclub and AVForums) that informed me to have a look at that product, instead of sending me to go buy the media players that were "widely available" at the time - and then pull my hair out for months after. Honestly, that kind of info is valuable as hell. And no it doesnt mean the product will become mainstream. Even now I am sure that Apple or Netgear still outsells PopornHour. But the informed buyer has benefited.

Personally, I gravitate towards more popular products. Go with the devil you know. A wider install base typically means more problems are documented, and often workarounds provided. You also get a feel for the company's support responsiveness. You may be satisfied by a niche company, but it's also possible you experience incompatibility with your unique configuration, which you weren't aware of due to the limited user base.

As for attitude, well I could tell you a long story about bad attitude from Netgear after I had paid them my money for their product. I mean a measly 90 day warranty and they wouldnt even serve me right for that brief time. That is a bad attitude. I left them and let's put it this way, the Draytek that I replaced it with has never once crashed, nor have I had to call them or use my longer warranty. That is the "attitude" I am looking for as a consumer.

Personally I have a Draytek and I certainly aint going back to dealing with the majority of the router brands that are reviewed here. I wont tell you what I have is the best and only router of all time - I am not qualfied to do so and even I dont think it is "perfect" per se. But having used one for several years, its fair to say that its a brand worth reviewing. They are doing something right with the product. Maybe not the marketing, but hey the product quality is what matters to me, having paid my money.

Customer experience is valuable, but consider this: assuming no other issues, if that Netgear you purchased had a 5% failure rate, 19 out of 20 users would be content. Though dissatisfied users do squawk more loudly than happy users, they're still greatly outnumbered. Should you judge a product by an experience not likely to be had by the vast majority of users? While I can understand your aversion to Netgear because of perceived poor customer service, I'd be hesitant to judge Draytek by the same metric without dealing with their support at all. Even then, as the saying goes, "the plural of anecdote is not data." You may have simply failed to lose the hardware defect lottery twice in a row. The best way to indirectly gauge reliability is to draw conclusions from larger samples, which is difficult for niche companies.

Truth is electronics are increasingly a use-and-throw offering these days, so as a buyer it is refreshing to see a company that seems to make products for the long haul. With that in mind, I would suggest that you take an information provider point of view on the issue rather than gatekeeper one. There seem to be lot of egos getting in the way here. Maybe stuff about them kissing the Don's ring and so on. Or maybe something else we are not aware of. But none of that is serving us as readers of the website, or as consumers.

Have you considered emailing Draytek to find out why they don't bother submitting their products for review by US sites?

Inside this is also really a news opportunity. Draytek makes a good number of products and no they arent cheap, being really targeted at small busineses rather than consumers. It is certainly worth knowing which ones of their products are in fact good value for consumers and maybe worth stepping up to, and which may not be. IN other words are there any good reasons to spend 90 bucks for a Draytek G router when a DIR-655 is the same price. Are there good reasons to spend 275 bucks for a Draytek N router when that DIR is 90 bucks. Again it would be interesting to see what is really in the comparison and what types of buyer might find any value in this. The same goes for "SMB" type of networking prodcuts from D-Link and so on. Can any consumer find real value in paying more a DAP-2553 instead of a DAP-1552?

That may not be fair to Draytek--hypothetical review states "@$275, this router represents poor value compared to consumer lineup." Business class hardware @ business class prices is poor value for consumers, because of different feature weightings. If you don't need VPN support, paying an extra $100 for something unnecessary is difficult to justify. I think Draytek marketing should be the one telling you why their product is special, and reviewers to evaluate those claims.

Maybe even conduct long term tests of these or other more expensive routers, to see over several months which ones may be more likely to overheat or crash or whater. Really getting under the covers. Is there any value in spending more money in the long run? If so how much is it really worth. This is the type of assessment this website has at times implicitly or explicity made regarding products such as the D-link DIR-855. Again this is the kind of info I would hope this website wants to make its name on - by informing consumers where the value is, or is. This should be more important than egos.

The problem with stability testing is that you can only report on the problems you experience. Stability also changes with hardware/firmware upgrades; in order to stay relevant, you'd have to constantly reevaluate the router. Deriving stability from the community is a much better method, provided you have enough insight to sift though reports. And I think the business perspective is a much better explanation than "egos."

[odu]

Thanks for this insight into your reviewing ideas and policies. I have read it twice, but I find your arguments unconvincing to say the least. This is probably my own shortcoming; I'll put it down to cultural differences (I'm European and have somewhat different ideas about what an independent reviewing site should be about).

You did, however, succeed in warning me that your set of reviews does not necessarily cover the best that is out there.

And it's still a good site.

Regards,

Oscar.

[jdabbs]

I should emphasize that I have absolutely no input into SNB's review policy--I'm basically the forums janitor. However, from being in the PC enthusiast community for over a decade, it's not difficult to rationalize a site's perspective.

I'm not certain by what you mean by "independent." Given a site with unlimited resources and staff, it would be possible to purchase and review every product out there. You won't find such a site, especially for a niche interest. Cnet is a much larger site, and they can barely manage more than two paragraphs per product. Does accepting units from vendors preclude a site from being independent? If so, truly independent sites are few and far between. I take "independent" to mean "objective," meaning an impartial, unbiased review of products. Although vendors would love a favorable review, (integrity aside) the community frowns on these things, and a site without readers is of little use to vendors--ultimately the site loses.

The overall takeaway message is that Draytek not sending units for review by US sites (even for temporary loan) is more the cause of lack of coverage than a conspiracy by D-Link/Linksys to shut the little guys out. I'm tempted to pseudonymously contact Draytek to ask why they don't engage US sites, but I think it should be done by someone with a legitimate interest in the product. Volunteers?

[Osamede]

Well then the message from SMB is that they wont review these products. Fair enought but personally I can say that am still more interested in reading review of products such as a Draytek or a Buffalo or a Fritzbox. And those are generally still missing here.

In contrast, I pretty much ingore each review these days that I see here on the D-LinkCiscoSys 310.5N or whatever. At some point one really has no more attention span to devote to what is obviously a steady steam of products designed for 5 mins so that you can buy another one 5 mins later.

Maybe those are the ones products that turn up in your mailbox for free, but as even your own reviews underline, they are generally worth very little to me as a consumer.

[rolaids-]

I did a bit of a test recently, a Draytek 2910, vs a Linksys RV042.
The DrayTek is a newer router, not an apples to apples comparison -- but the Linksys is recommeded a lot around here.

Hardware:
Linksys (http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/RV042)
I have no clue what the Draytek has inside.

Test: uTorrent 1.8.3, CentOS 5.3 CDs 1-6, DVD both the i386 and the x86_64.

uTorrent set to accept 1000 connections per torrent, globally 5000 connections max.

Connections: 6Mbps/768Kbps aDSL, 20Mbps/2Mbps Biz Cable.

I used AnalogX to measure local network card input/output to get an idea of what was coming to the computer. Both managed to max out the connections (as far as I could tell, total down was about 24Mbps and up was about 1.5Mbps fairly stable on each.)

Using: netstat -n |find /I /C "63438" to determine local connections (to the computer)

The linksys averaged 800 connections max, but could not sustain this (would lock up or restart if pushed harder)

The Draytek managed to keep up with out much of a sweat (was showing ~40%-~60% cpu and almost 80% memory usage.) It didn't lock up or restart. Max was around 3000 connections, and pretty steady at 2000 connections.

When testing with the draytek, the comptuer started to lag behind (disk I/O saturation and high CPU load.)


Cost comparison:
Draytek 2910: $171 + S&H (http://www.dsl-warehouse.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=169&osCsid=26fbf6c6daf1d455063ac95ffbd3a863)

Linksys RV042: $160 + S&H (http://computers.pricegrabber.com/routers/Linksys-4PT-VPN-RTR/m3064068.html/search=linksys+RV042/sort_type=price/st=sort)

About the same price and features, but completely different results. The RV042 I have was pulled from service because it would intermittently lock up and need a power cycle. Linksys support was of no help other than update firmware which never really solved the issue. I can't give my boss the excuse "well, they are trying to fix it." Just doesn't cut it. I fixed the problem, got rid of the issue...

NOW, I will say I did have an issue with a 2950. There was a weird fluke where the updated firmware was not compatible with settings that have been in service. This one time, I had to load settings from scratch (but I'm uber diligent about documenting every screen and every setting) so that only took about an hour to get set back up. I'm not sure if draytek put the effort into figuring it out because what had happened is all of my NAT tables that were tied to specific ports were all set to WAN1, and would not stay set to WAN2 where necessary. This caused the hardware watchdog to reset the router because it was locked up. Unplugging WAN1 made the issue seem to go away (and the strange thing is that NAT still functioned as it was supposed to.) I reset to factory (with the latest firmware image) reloaded the settings and was good to go.

I guess what I'm trying to say is --- because its main stream, and people don't report issues doesn't mean they don't exist. My mom for example, as a Linksys Vonage router. She's used to the fact that it requires a restart every few days because the phone will stop working or the internet connection will also. What does Vonage do about this? They replace the router every several months. I can say that 100% of the routers they've sent (all linksys, different models) have had issues. She's just gotten used to the "I have to reset or I don't get calls" which I think has become common with the masses and mainstream -- its not until those of us who know better don't put up with that and vote with our wallets.

[Dennis Wood]

Steve (Draytek), I'd love for you to send a few Draytek products to Tim for review. If you read a few of Tim's reviews, you'll see he calls it like it is, regardless of the brand. As reviewers go, he's about as unbiased as you'll find anywhere, and if a product does not live up to its claims, Tim is one of the first to call attention to it. As for damage control on your first post here...that's all you :-)

I wanted to purchase a Draytek Dual WAN router and simply found it hard to find in North America...so I've got a Netgear (which I've got mixed feelings about after spending several days working through bugs). Reading what I've read about Draytek, it seems your customers like your products and my sense too (after about 15 years at this) is that the products are good. Why? Because when folks have issues, they're vocal...and when all is good, they're relatively quiet. All that's missing is a few reviews on credible sites like this one to get a few more retailers interested in the US/Canada.

Another constructive critique...your downloadable documentation (user manual) on the dual wan SSL routers doesn't mention SSL VPN configuration! I found it in the FAQ sections.

Cheers,

[Osamede]

I wanted to purchase a Draytek Dual WAN router and simply found it hard to find in North America.,
How hard could it be. I myself found it by doing what i do with any manufacturer - go thir website and look for the section that says where you can buy their product.

That took me to 2 retailers one of which I used and found good: www.guideband.com

I mean you werent expecting to find this thing at bestBuy or something, were you? As a consumer its pretty clear how the US electronics market works - The prices are good, but the flipside is that thye make up for low margins but cultivating a culture of "disposable" products so we keep buying and buying. I router that just plain works, isnt focused on sexy flavour of the month etc, well that just really has no role in that value chains.

I find the same with audio equipment too. If you just want plain old long term type of quality,not brand flavour of the month, then you'll need to look online or to small specialist retailers. You cant look in the regular channels. They arent interested in those type of "old school" products.

[Dennis Wood]

Touché then :-) I did find (and purchased) the Draytek product as described here: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=2384

No, they're not hard to find, but there are no resellers listed in Canada, and you need to figure out www.draytek.us to find a reseller in the US. My sense so far of the Draytek products, particularly after reading their slick glossy product catalog, was that this company is in definite need of at least one person who speaks proper English. The products are obviously enterprise class, but the supporting material is well, distracting, to say the least. Having poked around in the Draytek 2950G firmware for an hour or so, the product is obviously very well designed and the feature set is well beyond what I'm seeing on the Netgear FVS336G. Draytek could have a much larger customer base in this sector than it does now, by just sending products out for review. It certainly worked for QNAP.

Cinevate (http://www.cinevate.com) bases its success on solid customer relationships via social media, web forums, as well as email newsletters coupled to magazine campaigns....and aside from a few resellers, is 100% internet sales based. We also maintain a worldwide network of sponsored cinematographers who help promote our products. Hopefully that puts my comments into perspective :-) As the owner of the company, I don't really have time to post here at all. However, having spent 10 years as a systems analyst for the Canadian government, and running my own company before that for 4 years...I suppose I remain a tech geek at heart ;-) Filmmakers/Photographers likely have the the largest data requirements of most. Case in point, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do a 50TB array for a busy studio (of just five shooters) in Toronto. Folks like these don't have time to mess around with buggy product, and if a company comes in solid at Draytek's price point, then potential is probably very large in this sector.